Tic Toc question

[pck]

I seem to have difficulty doing tic tocs on both my Trex and Mini-T. I can't seem to hold the altitude as it would seem to drop very quickly. Some one told me that my headspeed seems to be insufficient.

I am currently using a scorpion 2221-8 with a 13T pinion on my Mini-T and a scorpion 2221-10 with a 13T pinion on my TRex. I don't have a tach so i cannot measure my headspeed. I am not running governor mode on my esc.

Can anyone recommend if i should use a 14 or 15T pinion for these motors? Does it help? Also, what other additional setup area should i take note of to do a proper tic toc?

Any advice is very much appreciated. Thanks.

[genexis]

its hard to diagnose your problem without seeing how your current tic toc looks like.

Most of the time, if you cannot hold your altitude, it is because you do not dare to "tic" enough; where tic = to how far back you allow your heli to go inverted before you input negative pitch again.

If this is not the problem, then i guess it may be other minor collective management. I think people like CKS should share his experience in learning tic-tocs.

[johndyl]

13t on the 2221-8 should be enough.. what's ur t%?

slow/too little cyclics can also be a prob. u can try half flips first..to and fro and then progress from there

[pck]

its hard to diagnose your problem without seeing how your current tic toc looks like.

Most of the time, if you cannot hold your altitude, it is because you do not dare to "tic" enough; where tic = to how far back you allow your heli to go inverted before you input negative pitch again.

If this is not the problem, then i guess it may be other minor collective management. I think people like CKS should share his experience in learning tic-tocs.

i can push my heli back to almost an inverted hover but it's when i give it a forward elevator, it tends to drop in altitude... so maybe i my technique is wrong?

[pck]

13t on the 2221-8 should be enough.. what's ur t%?

slow/too little cyclics can also be a prob. u can try half flips first..to and fro and then progress from there

what is "t%"?
My ATV is 100% for cyclics and my cyclics angle are +-7 degrees so i think it should be ok right?

Can you describe the technique to do a proper tic toc? I am beginning to think maybe my technique is incorrect... or not fast enough...

[CKS]

Assuming you've enough headspeed but the heli bogs down when you tictoc.. then it may be collective management issue..

Do you leave enough headspeed-room immediately after the tic/toc?
The collective management part of this move is something like ...

1. perform the tic with almost full negative
2. immediately return pitch to 0 as soon the heli kicks from 'tic' position
3. give almost full positive on the toc
4. immediately return pitch to 0 as soon the heli kicks from 'toc' position

since we'll be using almost full or full collective at either 'tic' or 'toc' end .. the collective should not be held for too long at that position to avoid bogging the head ... thus the idea to return pitch to 0 to leave enough 'power reserve'

kindof like using momentum to half flip the heli ..

I got my tictoc concept from genexis about a year ago Works for me ..

what is "t%"?
My ATV is 100% for cyclics and my cyclics angle are +-7 degrees so i think it should be ok right?

Can you describe the technique to do a proper tic toc? I am beginning to think maybe my technique is incorrect... or not fast enough...

[pck]

Hi CKS, thanks for the tip.

At the moment, i am doing my tic toc at full invert hover position. that means, i do not move to 'toc' when the heli is at 45 degrees angle. (not that skill and don't know how yet ). So when it reaches a 90 degree invert, i tend to give it a full negative pitch followed by forward cyclic and that's when i notice my heli bogs down and i lose altitude while the heli returns to upright position. hmmm.....

Assuming you've enough headspeed but the heli bogs down when you tictoc.. then it may be collective management issue..

Do you leave enough headspeed-room immediately after the tic/toc?
The collective management part of this move is something like ...

1. perform the tic with almost full negative
2. immediately return pitch to 0 as soon the heli kicks from 'tic' position
3. give almost full positive on the toc
4. immediately return pitch to 0 as soon the heli kicks from 'toc' position

since we'll be using almost full or full collective at either 'tic' or 'toc' end .. the collective should not be held for too long at that position to avoid bogging the head ... thus the idea to return pitch to 0 to leave enough 'power reserve'

kindof like using momentum to half flip the heli ..

I got my tictoc concept from genexis about a year ago Works for me ..

[johndyl]

what is "t%"?
My ATV is 100% for cyclics and my cyclics angle are +-7 degrees so i think it should be ok right?

Can you describe the technique to do a proper tic toc? I am beginning to think maybe my technique is incorrect... or not fast enough...

hi t% means throttle curve %.. i find for the scorpion u can set 95 or 100% flat, it has enuff torque to handle it

most likely it is timing.. practise on the sim more

[baby_zyklon]

Tic-toc is nothing more than a combination of reasonably good equipment and getting use to the timing between cyclic and collective. Nothing else. I am not saying your eqiupment is not up to spec or your setting is bad, but without a reasonably well setup that is proper adjusted, it will be hard to tic-toc, no matter how good the tic-toc skill of the pilot is.

During the process of tic-toc, you will never at any point of time find the two sticks both at the extreme position. If they are, it can only be either your skill or your settings(not enough cyclic speed, power or collective range).

[helirulz]

Assuming the miniT main gear is 150t, the 2221-8 motor with a 13t pinion @100% throttle curve should give you around 3200RPM which is more than enough for heavy 3D.
Im using 12t myself and have no problems flying around.

[pck]

THanks to all who replied! That brings me to another question....

Do most of you fly with a flat throttle curve? (ie. 90-90-90 or 100-100-100) or do you use governer? I am using a v-curve at the moment. 100-50-100. Would you recommend to that i change this?

[helirulz]

THAT IS THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEM!
Run it flat 100%!!

[johndyl]

THanks to all who replied! That brings me to another question....

Do most of you fly with a flat throttle curve? (ie. 90-90-90 or 100-100-100) or do you use governer? I am using a v-curve at the moment. 100-50-100. Would you recommend to that i change this?

at most u shld only run 100 80 100 and thats only if ur throttle response is set to MAX

if not ur hs is changing so much all the time, how to do proper tick tok??

[edmond22]

No need flat lar, I used something like 100, 85, 75, 85, 100 without governor and still can tic toc my former beam very well. The Tic toc is proper hold attitude and super fast with the tail pivoting at the same place.

[chuan]

2221-10 need up to 15t to 17t for 3D.
13t can't