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    #16
    Originally posted by LittleGiant View Post
    Got 2 3s 1500mah lipo packs. Charged and discharged for 2 cycles fully. Cells were discharged from 4.2V to 3V each. Total charge and discharged capacities are constant and values are very close (1290mah - charge vs 1285mah discharge). Discharge rate was tested at 1C and 2C (both discharge capacities are similar) But isn't the lipo rated at 1500mah? Why is the battery over rated by more than 200mah?

    Will there be such a problem with more expensive lipos? I mean are expensive lipos over rated as well in terms of capacities?
    Hi LittleGiant

    Ans: Lipo packs (eg 3s 1p) are cells (combination), each cell are rated its volume (capacity). Chemical present in the cell is to do chemical conversion storage. Chemical have it own characteristic (different fm MFG in different of purity, quality, chemical and percentage use/mix, forms different grade "A", "B", "C" quality and different discharge rate C's) this is how lipo cells are built. During charging cycle the charger will pump current and voltage slighly higher always to the cell voltage (so that it can charge) feeding process (conversion process). Until the point before fully charge that is the charger triggles off (show cell fully charge) both the voltage and current are till inputing to the cells (it can be triggle- topup slightly charging). At this point (2 things happen)

    1)if one of the cells are slightly old/slower it will have to be slightly longer to reach there fully (means the charger have to put a little fews seconds longer before cut off ) result charger will either push the other cells a fews sec longer result more in capacity reading-slightly higher.

    2)if all cells are best "A" grade branded ultra quality battery, there are tolerances in each cells MFG by the manufacture (for safety and purpose) can be slightly over charge (can rate 4.25 even 4.3 per cell). Therefore your charger reading is 200mah more (200mah divided by 3 cell = 66mah). To the cells they are still in its tolerances charging range (some have mention in Mfg safety spec- comes with lipo battery safety and handling sheets).

    Developement of cell (R&D) spend alot of money in research of the chemical use. During the years of working the cell from hard casing to soft casing lipo. Then from 1C discharge to 30C discharge, the lipo chemical fomulation had change through these years (you may not know the detail fomulation because of company trade patent) also it is fomulate for their brands rights (eg japan-sony. korean-anerland etc).

    There is plenty/alot of brand of charger produce in the market nowadays. Charger I.C. circuitry, calibration, safety tolerances are important. But some how some of these are MFG are different in producing readers may slightly out because of (copyied rights issue) it can be due the I.C. chips, it can be due to the circuit board (design), it can be due the componet (china, taiwan , thailand, malaysia component), it can be due to that country MFG voltage 110V (country may using 110v instead 230V during design and MFG- regulating cct is is diff), or can be made without ISO 9002 standards (cheap in cost, cheap price fm China). All this are consideration result of the reading differences too.

    Lipo have is own internal resistances during charging and discharging, therefore even the same branded cell can or may varies very slight different. Bear in mind there is this connector call dimms that soldering to be done. Soldering lead there is a percentace of resistances too. Same thing to the gold pins connectors (connectors even is super shine connection there is a percentage of resistances). How abot the solder in the LIPO cells (cell to cell connection that makes 3s, 6s, also battery output wires resistance 18SWG, 20SWG etc.

    Alway a fresh lipo the flight timming/power is longest most powerful and older cell will tends to deplet. When the life span reached is time to change. To prolong the life of the lipo is depends on individuals and owner to maintain. Lipo cells never last forever and cheaper good cells are always around.

    Enjoy and spend more time in RC flying, hovering, boating, drifting, crawling have more friends in this hobby and keep things simple. Life is short enjoy upmost. cheerz...

    Happy CNY year too

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by zennith View Post
      Hi LittleGiant

      Therefore your charger reading is 200mah more (200mah divided by 3 cell = 66mah).
      I assume that you are talking about 3 pack in parellel.

      All I am saying is that is it common to have lipo packs that don't even meet their stated capacities on the market? Don't manufacturer rate the battery capacities from a fully charged 4.2V to 3V (underload)?
      Modded Esavage + 4S lipo + KB45 2300KV + HW150A
      Brushless Esky Lama with dual swash
      Esky Dauphin
      Walkera Lama 2
      Walkera 5G6
      Sparrowhawk XB + 2S lipo + 60A brushless esc + 6000kv motor.
      Brushless Mini LST + single servo mod
      Brushless Micro-T

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by HotDogBun View Post
        The charger is serving me well
        Used it once to charge my 6s lipo so far, the fan is actually on thermosat, so it will only activate when the temp is above the limit, a function to lengthen lifespan of fan

        I'm quite surprised you discharge your lipo to below 3.5V per cell. From my experience, at this voltage, all the cells will go crazy and be unbalanced if they are discharge through dean, not sure if using balancer to discharge individually.

        I have been using reputable lipos like Flightpower when I first started. When I switched to other brands like 3E,ZippyR, Rhino, and now Vplus, I realised their discharge is as good as one needs. The do not bloat like what some reputable lipos like FP and TP do.

        I am not sure which lipo is from China, but I have heard most of the lipos from market originated from Korea. You can name some brands to see if anyone has used them?
        Manufacturer's recommendation is min 3V per cell. However voltage across a cell drops while it is underload V=IR, R is constant so for a lousy lipo, the voltage across the cell will drop even further (since the lipo can't supply the current to maintain the voltage). This will result in a lower reported capacity. Voltage underload is always lower than voltage not under load. Which explains y cell voltage jumps back up to 3.3 - 3.8V once the cells are disconnected from its load.

        So here I am wondering how do manufacturers rate their batteries. Do they rate it accordingly to the USABLE capacity of each cell with its voltage falling from 4.2 to 3V underload or a capacity that is merely needed to maintain a minimum 3V count per cell, that is not under load, to a 4.2V full charge. If the latter is the case then the usable capacity of the cell will definitely be lesser than how the cells is specified since some of the mah goes into maintaining the min 3V per cell.

        I don't do hard 3D or crazy speed driving. In fact the only battery hungry vehicles that I have are a mini lst that is geared to about 40km per hour and an e-savage that can probably do about 50 - 55km per hour. Their escs are programmed to cut off at 3V per cell (under load of course) and so far I have yet to experience any imbalanced cells after runs. But my fear is that there will be a sudden deep discharge right before the LVC kicks in and this can really harm the cells.
        Modded Esavage + 4S lipo + KB45 2300KV + HW150A
        Brushless Esky Lama with dual swash
        Esky Dauphin
        Walkera Lama 2
        Walkera 5G6
        Sparrowhawk XB + 2S lipo + 60A brushless esc + 6000kv motor.
        Brushless Mini LST + single servo mod
        Brushless Micro-T

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by zennith View Post
          Hi LittleGiant

          Ans: Lipo packs (eg 3s 1p) are cells (combination), each cell are rated its volume (capacity). Chemical present in the cell is to do chemical conversion storage. Chemical have it own characteristic (different fm MFG in different of purity, quality, chemical and percentage use/mix, forms different grade "A", "B", "C" quality and different discharge rate C's) this is how lipo cells are built. During charging cycle the charger will pump current and voltage slighly higher always to the cell voltage (so that it can charge) feeding process (conversion process). Until the point before fully charge that is the charger triggles off (show cell fully charge) both the voltage and current are till inputing to the cells (it can be triggle- topup slightly charging). At this point (2 things happen)

          1)if one of the cells are slightly old/slower it will have to be slightly longer to reach there fully (means the charger have to put a little fews seconds longer before cut off ) result charger will either push the other cells a fews sec longer result more in capacity reading-slightly higher.

          2)if all cells are best "A" grade branded ultra quality battery, there are tolerances in each cells MFG by the manufacture (for safety and purpose) can be slightly over charge (can rate 4.25 even 4.3 per cell). Therefore your charger reading is 200mah more (200mah divided by 3 cell = 66mah). To the cells they are still in its tolerances charging range (some have mention in Mfg safety spec- comes with lipo battery safety and handling sheets).

          Developement of cell (R&D) spend alot of money in research of the chemical use. During the years of working the cell from hard casing to soft casing lipo. Then from 1C discharge to 30C discharge, the lipo chemical fomulation had change through these years (you may not know the detail fomulation because of company trade patent) also it is fomulate for their brands rights (eg japan-sony. korean-anerland etc).

          There is plenty/alot of brand of charger produce in the market nowadays. Charger I.C. circuitry, calibration, safety tolerances are important. But some how some of these are MFG are different in producing readers may slightly out because of (copyied rights issue) it can be due the I.C. chips, it can be due to the circuit board (design), it can be due the componet (china, taiwan , thailand, malaysia component), it can be due to that country MFG voltage 110V (country may using 110v instead 230V during design and MFG- regulating cct is is diff), or can be made without ISO 9002 standards (cheap in cost, cheap price fm China). All this are consideration result of the reading differences too.

          Lipo have is own internal resistances during charging and discharging, therefore even the same branded cell can or may varies very slight different. Bear in mind there is this connector call dimms that soldering to be done. Soldering lead there is a percentace of resistances too. Same thing to the gold pins connectors (connectors even is super shine connection there is a percentage of resistances). How abot the solder in the LIPO cells (cell to cell connection that makes 3s, 6s, also battery output wires resistance 18SWG, 20SWG etc.

          Alway a fresh lipo the flight timming/power is longest most powerful and older cell will tends to deplet. When the life span reached is time to change. To prolong the life of the lipo is depends on individuals and owner to maintain. Lipo cells never last forever and cheaper good cells are always around.

          Enjoy and spend more time in RC flying, hovering, boating, drifting, crawling have more friends in this hobby and keep things simple. Life is short enjoy upmost. cheerz...

          Happy CNY year too
          I don't really quite catch what you mean. Probably you are trying to tell me about those external factors that affect the capacity of a cell. So you are saying the resistance inside wires, soldering points and battery resistance are affecting the discharge capacity. But in my earlier example, the ECpower (I hope that you don't work for ECpower) cells are over rated by at least 200mah for a 1500mah cell. That is about 13% less than its rated 1500mah. Are you telling me that soldering resistance can offset that much of capacity? If that is the case, y are my wires not heating up during charging or discharging at the rate of 1C? Btw, I am using a hyperion charger which I believe to be accurate enough to determine the rated capacity of a lipo. And the 2nd point I want to point out about the ECpower lipos is that if internal resistance (wire, soldering etc) is affecting the discharge capacity, why is it that I am consistantly getting the same charge and discharge capacities (1275mah vs 1277 - 2nd pack tested)? Shouldn't the wiring resistance lower the discharged capacity? Isn't this very obvious that the ECpower lipos are simply over rated? I am not saying that they are no good. They are very light and provide plenty of power. Cells are more resilent compared to other chinese brands. Just that the fact that the actual battery capacity is lower than rated is bugging me.

          Am I getting the wrong idea about how lipo capacities are rated? Can someone correct me if I am wrong?

          Has anyone done a full discharge from 4.2V to 3V per cell at the rate of 1C (1C full discharge isn't going to damage your cells. No worries about deep discharge) on the more expensive lipos? Any real life number at all?
          Modded Esavage + 4S lipo + KB45 2300KV + HW150A
          Brushless Esky Lama with dual swash
          Esky Dauphin
          Walkera Lama 2
          Walkera 5G6
          Sparrowhawk XB + 2S lipo + 60A brushless esc + 6000kv motor.
          Brushless Mini LST + single servo mod
          Brushless Micro-T

          Comment


            #20
            Probably i bought some 3 year old lipo huh.

            But who has heard of chinese 20C lipos 3 years back?
            Modded Esavage + 4S lipo + KB45 2300KV + HW150A
            Brushless Esky Lama with dual swash
            Esky Dauphin
            Walkera Lama 2
            Walkera 5G6
            Sparrowhawk XB + 2S lipo + 60A brushless esc + 6000kv motor.
            Brushless Mini LST + single servo mod
            Brushless Micro-T

            Comment


              #21
              Technically CHIM for me with all those scientific diarrhea

              For me, I always take the ratings with pinch of salt and trust 80% of it to be on safe side...

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by HotDogBun View Post
                Technically CHIM for me with all those scientific diarrhea

                For me, I always take the ratings with pinch of salt and trust 80% of it to be on safe side...
                I guess for now I will stick to the chinese lipos. they are about 3 times cheaper than branded stuff. Think I will just make do with the 10% less battery capacity. By the way, Loong max cells are very hardy. Left them on full charge for over 3 months once. Totally forgotten about them. Cells were still balance. But lost over 200mah out of the supposedly 2250mah. Now cells around around 2000mah only. But they can still deliver power. I'm talking about 4s.
                Modded Esavage + 4S lipo + KB45 2300KV + HW150A
                Brushless Esky Lama with dual swash
                Esky Dauphin
                Walkera Lama 2
                Walkera 5G6
                Sparrowhawk XB + 2S lipo + 60A brushless esc + 6000kv motor.
                Brushless Mini LST + single servo mod
                Brushless Micro-T

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by LittleGiant View Post
                  I guess for now I will stick to the chinese lipos. they are about 3 times cheaper than branded stuff. Think I will just make do with the 10% less battery capacity. By the way, Loong max cells are very hardy. Left them on full charge for over 3 months once. Totally forgotten about them. Cells were still balance. But lost over 200mah out of the supposedly 2250mah. Now cells around around 2000mah only. But they can still deliver power. I'm talking about 4s.
                  Many of us were already depending heavily on those cheaper lipos for more than a year, china or not is not certain, but for certain they produce results.
                  Yeah LoongMax is also being used by one of my flying kakis with good results, but his bloated after using for many many cycles.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Lipo capacities. Are all lipos over rated in terms of capacities?
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Got 2 3s 1500mah lipo packs. Charged and discharged for 2 cycles fully. Cells were discharged from 4.2V to 3V each. Total charge and discharged capacities are constant and values are very close (1290mah - charge vs 1285mah discharge). Discharge rate was tested at 1C and 2C (both discharge capacities are similar) But isn't the lipo rated at 1500mah? Why is the battery over rated by more than 200mah?

                    Have you discharge the remainder values 3.0 volt till below to 0.0 volt, that would meant the final remainder capacity of this battery the MFG means 1500mah rating. (which means you discharge to test the full maximun and the battery will cell die aft this test).

                    Will there be such a problem with more expensive lipos? I mean are expensive lipos over rated as well in terms of capacities?
                    Some more expensive lipo are under rated and some on the dot.

                    All I am saying is that is it common to have lipo packs that don't even meet their stated capacities on the market?
                    Yes, some do not meet their stated capacity

                    Don't manufacturer rate the battery capacities from a fully charged 4.2V to 3V (underload)?
                    no not really

                    I don't really quite catch what you mean. Probably you are trying to tell me about those external factors that affect the capacity of a cell. So you are saying the resistance inside wires, soldering points and battery resistance are affecting the discharge capacity. But in my earlier example, the ECpower (I hope that you don't work for ECpower) cells are over rated by at least 200mah for a 1500mah cell. That is about 13% less than its rated 1500mah. Are you telling me that soldering resistance can offset that much of capacity?

                    Do you know how does your hyperon charger compute and result the capacity reading during charging and discharging? is it by time taken or....? will resistance delay the time taken effect result in show readings on charger? can find out, how others charger compute

                    my wires not heating up during charging or discharging at the rate of 1C?

                    Try apply higher C.... A gd experiment can try high current charge to NIMH car battery packs > 1C. Internal resistance does present (in all cells, in all wires, in all solder point, in all connector point, also solder tap in cell to cell alu taps + - to form 3s or 6s) when you are charging/discharging battery. You may not feel the temp unless you have a temp prob connect to charger and lipo battery to see changes.

                    Btw, I am using a hyperion charger which I believe to be accurate enough to determine the rated capacity of a lipo. And the 2nd point I want to point out about the ECpower lipos is that if internal resistance (wire, soldering etc) is affecting the discharge capacity, why is it that I am consistantly getting the same charge and discharge capacities (1275mah vs 1277 - 2nd pack tested)?

                    Your charger is working fine. Have you try using other charger to get reading? what reading be and is it tally same reading result? A $450 Expensive charger also have wrong reading and have to sent bk NFG for recalibration. Means same charger can give slight diff result

                    Isn't this very obvious that the ECpower lipos are simply over rated?
                    I am not saying that they are no good. They are very light and provide plenty of power. Cells are more resilent compared to other chinese brands. Just that the fact that the actual battery capacity is lower than rated is bugging me.
                    Am I getting the wrong idea about how lipo capacities are rated? Can someone correct me if I am wrong?

                    Suggestion to sent an email to the MFG for an explaination and share in the forum is the battery over rated and why is it so. Is good to find out and understand more

                    Has anyone done a full discharge from 4.2V to 3V per cell at the rate of 1C (1C full discharge isn't going to damage your cells. No worries about deep discharge) on the more expensive lipos? Any real life number at all?

                    I am Sure some of the flyer had done this and have recordings. Hope they can share their experiment and findings. Because I did this and capacity rating can varies on batteries types (I also did experiment on lipo cells -expensive, cheap cells, old cells and new cells, bloat and non bloat) and I mix and match with it (6 cells to 3 cells different capacity, bloat with non bloat) full charge and short to see it explode, de-bloat (puncture holes), cut open etc. And had been to lipo mfg that pack lipo cells specially for hobby shops-company & brands name will not mention

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by zennith View Post
                      Lipo capacities. Are all lipos over rated in terms of capacities?
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Got 2 3s 1500mah lipo packs. Charged and discharged for 2 cycles fully. Cells were discharged from 4.2V to 3V each. Total charge and discharged capacities are constant and values are very close (1290mah - charge vs 1285mah discharge). Discharge rate was tested at 1C and 2C (both discharge capacities are similar) But isn't the lipo rated at 1500mah? Why is the battery over rated by more than 200mah?

                      Have you discharge the remainder values 3.0 volt till below to 0.0 volt, that would meant the final remainder capacity of this battery the MFG means 1500mah rating. (which means you discharge to test the full maximun and the battery will cell die aft this test).

                      Will there be such a problem with more expensive lipos? I mean are expensive lipos over rated as well in terms of capacities?
                      Some more expensive lipo are under rated and some on the dot.

                      All I am saying is that is it common to have lipo packs that don't even meet their stated capacities on the market?
                      Yes, some do not meet their stated capacity

                      Don't manufacturer rate the battery capacities from a fully charged 4.2V to 3V (underload)?
                      no not really

                      I don't really quite catch what you mean. Probably you are trying to tell me about those external factors that affect the capacity of a cell. So you are saying the resistance inside wires, soldering points and battery resistance are affecting the discharge capacity. But in my earlier example, the ECpower (I hope that you don't work for ECpower) cells are over rated by at least 200mah for a 1500mah cell. That is about 13% less than its rated 1500mah. Are you telling me that soldering resistance can offset that much of capacity?

                      Do you know how does your hyperon charger compute and result the capacity reading during charging and discharging? is it by time taken or....? will resistance delay the time taken effect result in show readings on charger? can find out, how others charger compute

                      my wires not heating up during charging or discharging at the rate of 1C?

                      Try apply higher C.... A gd experiment can try high current charge to NIMH car battery packs > 1C. Internal resistance does present (in all cells, in all wires, in all solder point, in all connector point, also solder tap in cell to cell alu taps + - to form 3s or 6s) when you are charging/discharging battery. You may not feel the temp unless you have a temp prob connect to charger and lipo battery to see changes.

                      Btw, I am using a hyperion charger which I believe to be accurate enough to determine the rated capacity of a lipo. And the 2nd point I want to point out about the ECpower lipos is that if internal resistance (wire, soldering etc) is affecting the discharge capacity, why is it that I am consistantly getting the same charge and discharge capacities (1275mah vs 1277 - 2nd pack tested)?

                      Your charger is working fine. Have you try using other charger to get reading? what reading be and is it tally same reading result? A $450 Expensive charger also have wrong reading and have to sent bk NFG for recalibration. Means same charger can give slight diff result

                      Isn't this very obvious that the ECpower lipos are simply over rated?
                      I am not saying that they are no good. They are very light and provide plenty of power. Cells are more resilent compared to other chinese brands. Just that the fact that the actual battery capacity is lower than rated is bugging me.
                      Am I getting the wrong idea about how lipo capacities are rated? Can someone correct me if I am wrong?

                      Suggestion to sent an email to the MFG for an explaination and share in the forum is the battery over rated and why is it so. Is good to find out and understand more

                      Has anyone done a full discharge from 4.2V to 3V per cell at the rate of 1C (1C full discharge isn't going to damage your cells. No worries about deep discharge) on the more expensive lipos? Any real life number at all?

                      I am Sure some of the flyer had done this and have recordings. Hope they can share their experiment and findings. Because I did this and capacity rating can varies on batteries types (I also did experiment on lipo cells -expensive, cheap cells, old cells and new cells, bloat and non bloat) and I mix and match with it (6 cells to 3 cells different capacity, bloat with non bloat) full charge and short to see it explode, de-bloat (puncture holes), cut open etc. And had been to lipo mfg that pack lipo cells specially for hobby shops-company & brands name will not mention
                      I've used 3 different hyperion chargers to test the lipos. I've got 2 new lipos that is only doing between 800 to 850mah when they are rated at 1500mah.
                      Modded Esavage + 4S lipo + KB45 2300KV + HW150A
                      Brushless Esky Lama with dual swash
                      Esky Dauphin
                      Walkera Lama 2
                      Walkera 5G6
                      Sparrowhawk XB + 2S lipo + 60A brushless esc + 6000kv motor.
                      Brushless Mini LST + single servo mod
                      Brushless Micro-T

                      Comment


                        #26




                        Found some interesting stuff.

                        Seems like polyquest lipos have true capacity ratings.

                        Some quote from air-craft world "The rated capacity for each cell type is the minimum guaranteed by manufacturers at ā€œ2Cā€ discharge rates, by industry practice. Capacity is a measure of how much energy can be drawn from the battery before it is completely discharged. A 1200mAh cell (1.2Ah) can deliver 1.2 amps for one hour or more, for example. "
                        Modded Esavage + 4S lipo + KB45 2300KV + HW150A
                        Brushless Esky Lama with dual swash
                        Esky Dauphin
                        Walkera Lama 2
                        Walkera 5G6
                        Sparrowhawk XB + 2S lipo + 60A brushless esc + 6000kv motor.
                        Brushless Mini LST + single servo mod
                        Brushless Micro-T

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I've used 3 different hyperion chargers to test the lipos. I've got 2 new lipos that is only doing between 800 to 850mah when they are rated at 1500mah.

                          mean that the lipos are over rated confirm and agree

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Either that or the cells are dying and losing capacity aredi !
                            Seriously running out of ...Storage space !

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by LittleGiant View Post
                              http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33903



                              Found some interesting stuff.

                              Seems like polyquest lipos have true capacity ratings.

                              Some quote from air-craft world "The rated capacity for each cell type is the minimum guaranteed by manufacturers at ā€œ2Cā€ discharge rates, by industry practice. Capacity is a measure of how much energy can be drawn from the battery before it is completely discharged. A 1200mAh cell (1.2Ah) can deliver 1.2 amps for one hour or more, for example. "

                              Some lipo MFG live up to their reputation on true capacity rating.
                              Btw I am not representing any branded lipo company.
                              Capacity is a measure of how much energy can be drawn from the battery before it is completely discharged. A 1200mAh cell (1.2Ah) can deliver 1.2 amps for one hour or more, for example.
                              Therefore is depend on the timmer counter in the charger, the timmer could also varies in same built charger which means (sekio, casio MFG hv to have tolerances in watches calibration - when design building the timmer counter, becos there will be diff in function and shapes to build the watches). Therefore same brand charger also have diff model and diff built (internal timmer counter chips maybe different too) so MFG calibration is very impt before reaching to consumer. Else variation in reading happens (esp the max voltage cutoff 4.19, 4.20, 4.22).

                              Therefore branded expensive item will have reputation, quality, assurance and warrenty for the consumer. Doesn't mean CHEAP stuff are no good. Some item is value for money, but some have to stay away & choose wisely (ie milk powder for instances). I had seen a lipo explode in mid air during flight (internal taps 3s batt shorted in flight) and blow a hole in lipo (no brand mention). Therefore must be caution with Lipo batt.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Ghostfit

                                LittleGiant like to find out is lipo batt under or over or on the dot rated in capacity.

                                Discussion on the factors that cause and effect and some experiment with him.

                                Comment

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