Old Holland Road Flying Site

[Ghostfit]

Agree with you Joe on all points !

If the public is complaining about the noise then dun fly nitro (or noisy electrics) there. ...period ! pointless to argue over which one is safer.

...just be gracious enough to accept it as is, instead of painting a negative image of every other type of RC in a public forum.

Just like at PFW, the regulars really have to take the responsibility to tell or teach newcomers the rules of the place. (i.e: what is allowed or not allowed, fly, no-fly zones, etc) ...it helps to have bros who have friendly dispositions to serve as PRs for this role and more importantly, to explain to spectators or neighbours who stop by what you guys are doing.

...dun be surprised that after you're pipped their interests, they might just join you in the hobby. ...and that can only make the flying field and group stronger.

...and oh yes, ...it helps to be very visable to the authorities ...especially when you organise FF area clean ups, begineers clinics and public demos.

...just my 2 cents worth.

[P4cm4n2000]

Agree with Ghostfit & Joe

[wacs]

Social responsibility where parking and flying is concerned at old holland road should not merely be a function of personal vested interest, or of the relative value of the surrounding land. Parsifal was merely stating certain valid facts. The bigotry begins when general public perception of safety where electrics is concerned has to be hidden behind a veneer of relative ignorance.

There is however no debunking the argument about noise, and I would have to second the notion of education and communication, greater mutual understanding has a tendancy of decreasing distrust.

[MerrillChia]

Well guys, we as educated people in this hobby know that it is true that both electrics and nitros are just as dangerous. However, the general public do not know this and we are taking advantage of it, granted, true. But this is not the issue. Our goal is to preserve the field and permit some sort of flying there.
Now, if we look at it this way, if we carry on flying what the residents do not like, they simply complain and we move. If we are persistent in doing what they do not please, police will petrol the area frequently and we will eventually loose the field totally.

As for flyers, although electrics seem to be much safer, discipline must be practiced and we have to practice safe flying at all times. Simple things like keeping off the pavement, smiling at passing joggers will help to ease the tension between the residents and hobbyist in the area.

As stated before, it is a known FACT that residents are uncomfortable with nitro's flying in that area. Think about it from their view, smoke, flamable fuel (in their eyes) and loudness are all very very intimidating. Granted, it may not be the only problem, but complaints are of that. The other problem parking as no immediate solution, but complaints come in only when the row of cars grow too long. If we do want to keep the field for any type of flying, some measures have to be taken.

It is a free land and we have no right to say who can fly what. Regulars like myself who fly there almost daily however, want to preserve this field. We just hope people do not think of reasons why they shouldn't bother what we say because that way, they are just being very selfish. In this hobby, we are all at the mercy of the general public unless you are at an official club. A simple complaint to the Civial Aviation Authority of Singapore will get our equipments confiscated.

Incase we did not know, we are permitted up to 300feet of airspace and have to be at least 5km from any airbase. Take a map and map it out, the only place that does not lye in this area is Tuas.

Bottom line, if there are certain unwritten rules written by the regulars, follow them. It is there for a purpose and not for nothing. All it takes is 1 to screw it all up for a lot of other people. Please don't be selfish. We can only ask. Don't deprive others of something they treasure.
As i said before, go to pfw and try to fly a nitro there.. you have full right to do so and by right nobody can stop you. See what happens to the field in no time.. Get the picture? We are trying to save our field. Help us. Thank you!

[joe yap]

Social responsibility where parking and flying is concerned at old holland road should not merely be a function of personal vested interest, or of the relative value of the surrounding land. Parsifal was merely stating certain valid facts. The bigotry begins when general public perception of safety where electrics is concerned has to be hidden behind a veneer of relative ignorance.

There is however no debunking the argument about noise, and I would have to second the notion of education and communication, greater mutual understanding has a tendancy of decreasing distrust.

Yes, they are facts, but may not be exactly the issues regarding this particular case. To be fair, since the title of the thread is on this particular field, I think it is only useful to mention the issues involve here.

Just ask those guys who really have the balls to speak up towards the authorities to save the fields. There are examples here in this forum where people has the first hand experience of sucessfully saving thier flying fields.
Bring out loads of irrelevant issues ( at least for this particular thread ) will not help much. Worst still, you might be giving away some issues that they haven't look into.

Again, to handle the issues, stick to the relevant issues. As for the others, you can sort it out among ourselves. Most importantly, never bring out other issues which do not concern the matter directly, you only have everything to lose while just trying to save the field.

[Parsifal]

With all due respect to the posters here, as a resident of OHR, i find the idea that the perception of safety being the key issue faced when flying at OHR a bit worrying.

And ghostfit, again with all due respect to you, i have been flying electrics for a very long time, i love my gliders, and any insinuation that i am targeting electrics is not appreciated.

What i am interested in is the real issues that will save the field, not the false / easy ones.

I note the following though, in my conversations with the local constabulary, the issue of noise was not a problem. It was the other issues, like irresponsible parking and crowding around, and blocking the path and a general disrespect for the public at large (3 occasions and lengthy friendly conversations with them on weekday afternoons).

There were always nitro modellers around (we were all on leave) at these occasions too and noise was never an issue, on the contrary, they were most interested in a fellow modellers nitro heli. I was flying my electric glider at this time. I put it down to the said flyers being responsible and respectful. The fuzz always left with a smile and said to be safe about out business...

I refer you to the rules i suggested in my post as my contribution to preserving the field. I hope you guys didn't just stop reading when i talked about electrics

Anyways, thought this post shouldn't just be one where everyone agrees with one another, thats not really a discussion and kinda boring. That said, think thats really all i have to say on this subject so will leave it there.


Anyways, take care...

Pars.

[Mathieu]

Just who is complaining?
Is it, a certain Mr Goh or the people who use the field for recreation. Who?

The police for the past 5 years of which i have used the field, have visited and chased us away intermittently. One moment its safety, the next its parking, the next its litter. I primarily fly electrics there, i think the whole issue of nitro vs electrics has been blown out of proportion.

Again last week, there were groups of people playing ball and kites metres away from the flying site. No nitros, only electrics were flying. I find it perplexing that such blatant practices are overlooked in favour of blaming nitro for our woes.

This row has brought about bad feelings among those using the field. It is not necessary. We should fly responsibly and within limits. Get back to enjoying the hobby and not creating camps between the flyers.

[MerrillChia]

Well, i agree with pars and the rest of you all. I think all are valid points. However pars, I have spoken to the police who have come by several occasions and the complaints were regarding a nitro issue. It don't want to single it out as the sole problem, but as written in the papers a couple months back, there still is someone complaining about it.
The rules which you have stated are generally what all flyers should do, which i agree. However, though you may have a lenghty conversation or 2 with the residents who do walk by, all it takes is 1 which just doesn't like them to be around. The complaints did occur more frequently and police did come around more often when the number of nitro powered heli's/planes started to grow in numbers.

As i mentioned before, we cannot set rules to say that only electrics can fly there. I can only inform you of what the police had told me the complaint was about. If you do not believe that it is what it is, then i am lost for words. I don't believe i will end here just like that over OHR, simply because i am a regular and i want to be able to fly there.
At the end of the day, we don't want the police to regularly petrol the area ensuring that no one flies. Regulars damn well know that this is possible because it has happened before.

I started this thread to make people aware of the situation and reason with people why nitro's are strongly NOT encouraged to fly there. I am glad that from these threads which i started it has raised the awareness OHR deserves.
I hope people read and understand what is going on. Its not a question of whether nitro is safer than electrics or what ever.
It is how we can preserve this place as a flying site. Nitro's whether you like it or not has been frowned upon by some residents. Police have received complaints about it. It has been written in the news papers about it. What more do you want? The last thing i want is for the worst thing to come, so i just hope we all understand this and do what is necessary.
Yes, i have spoken to some passer by about our hobby and they left with a smile too, but where do you think the complaints really come from? Do you think the people who complaint will walk and find out more about what you are doing? Or would they just call the police and soon you will have to buzz off. Unfortunately, its easier to make a phone call.

We all have our opinions about the matter. The truth is there, its just whether we want to be oblivious to the facts.

[joe yap]

Mathieu, Parsifal, don't get too worked up. Nobody here is saying who is right or wrong. The sources of the complaints should be the main concern. This is at least the approach people has done to successfully save thier flying fields.

This thing is not new and not only happen in our Singapore with tight land and airspace. Electric also shares the similar problem these days as they grow in size and power. To give you another point of view from a foreigner in U.S. see the article I had posted some time ago.

http://www.daddyhobby.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29830&highlight=quiet+flyer

Since everyone has different ideas, why don't you guys form a committee, or at least norminate a reprresentitive to speak to the resident committee or involved governing authority? One thing for sure, the authorities will be more comfortable to have some organisation or Rep to address the situations. If everyone remains dis-organised, it'll be easier for them to raise a signboard.

[Ghostfit]

As i said before, go to pfw and try to fly a nitro there.. you have full right to do so and by right nobody can stop you.

...has happened before ! ...and I still can't get over how some of the bros who are normally very civilised suddenly turn "gangster'ish"
when they confront the perpetrator.

And ghostfit, again with all due respect to you, i have been flying electrics for a very long time, i love my gliders, and any insinuation that i am targeting electrics is not appreciated.

No malicious insinuation intended, my apologies if you felt I was targeting you. ...cool ya ?

And don't get me wrong either, I love my Nitros (Planes/Helis/Cars/Boats ) ...it's just that there is a time and a place for it.

I am sure you would'nt bring your EP gliders to BR right ? ...or fly your 50 size EP heli at some HDB void deck ?

[joe yap]

There is a vast difference between smoke and noise being a disturbance and being dangerous. I accept the disturbance issue no question, especially in the early morning, but more dangerous than an electric? this is false.

I fly both electric and nitro, and have been doing so for a very long time, in many countries and many clubs and suffice it to say, no experienced modeller will tell you that an electric plane (with a similar wingloading) to a nitro plane is safer, rather the truth is, they are more dangerous, and gliders, even more so because they tend to travel at speed.

This discussion is about preserving a flying site, i think pretending its about safety is somewhat hypocritical. Especially since the quiet nature of electrics presents a greater danger to the ignorant public.

A nitro model provides sufficient warning by virtue of the noise and smoke. A passer by, or someone thinking about walking across the field, would notice it and be more safe by virtue of doing so. The quiet nature of electrics tends to provide a false sense of security to the ignorant public.

Electrics don't necessarily die when they crash, more often than not, the prop / blades continue spinning at high speed, in the case of nitro, after the first bit of damage if the prob / blades hit something, the engine tends to die. This is why when you are being taught at a proper flying club, the trainers tell you that getting your hand caught in the prop of an electric will likely see all your fingers cut off rather than just one (in the case of a nitro)

Additionally, crashing a plane with lipos in it presents a much greater fire hazard than a plane full of nitro fuel. This is true for all occasions unless you crash into someones lit stove.

Parsifal,

Clear your mind and read this statement you posted, and try to put yourself in the shoe of the authorities or the public who read your statements. It sounds like you are giving the reader an impression that electric planes are very dangerous and should not be flown at such places. Also, nitros are safer but the noise also causes disturbances which can be a major concern.

What do you think is the best thing to do if the authorities read these? Choice of words are very important in these sensitive issue. The following quotes have same meanings but different results. Which one will you pick to say?

1."Nitros are as safe as electrics."
2."Electrics are as dangerous as nitros."

Again, as you said, you don't have to agree with anyone in this forum, since this is an open discussion. I just hope to point out certain things that we tends to overlook.

[Ivan M]

No big words and lengthy arguments from me.

I just want my field to be flyable.

This should be the common objective and goal for all, be it electric all nitro.

[efish]

What Are We Doing?

Hi Everyone,

I was referred to this extraordinary thread by a friend. I've flown at OHR for some time and enjoy operating both electric and nitro planes. Like many fliers, I do not routinely read nor participate on the various forums on DH.

Anyhow, I sense an earnest desire by most who have posted to keep flying at OHR. There's nothing wrong with wanting this. So I guess most of us at least have one common aim.

I do not propose to descend into the arena to debate the issues that have been raised because I think to do so would be a grave diservice to all OHR fliers and the hobby in general. Just a cursory read through the posts reveal a measure of ignorance and/or mischief by some.

From experience and as a basis for my comments, I have previously successfully defended my right to fly nitro aircraft in a residential area (in a locality other than OHR). I'm not saying where, but that field is smaller than OHR, much closer to residential houses and there are other policy/security considerations that mitigated against allowing RC aircraft. In that case, I even procured the police to issue a caution against the resident who had lodged the original complaint. Success required maturity of thought, a judiciously measured strategy and a firm approach with the authorities.

I must also say that we MUST be mindful that this is a public forum that is not restricted to RC enthusiasts. Anyone, whether fanatic, press or the authorities has unrestricted access. Some of us may recall how a few puerile comments made in jest on DH were quoted out of context and ascribed a wholly different meaning in the SPH forum last year.

So please, all of us are entitled to our own opinions. However, I think we should all also bear a duty to express them responsibly and, as the 2 pages of posts demonstrate so far, I do not believe that this thread is either constructive nor appropriate in preserving OHR as a flying site. Instead, it has only created confusion, irked dissensions and otherwise unhelpfully muddied the waters.

I would strongly urge the moderator to consider deleting it entirely as a service to all aeromodellers.

[MerrillChia]

Hi Everyone,

I was referred to this extraordinary thread by a friend. I've flown at OHR for some time and enjoy operating both electric and nitro planes. Like many fliers, I do not routinely read nor participate on the various forums on DH.

Anyhow, I sense an earnest desire by most who have posted to keep flying at OHR. There's nothing wrong with wanting this. So I guess most of us at least have one common aim.

I do not propose to descend into the arena to debate the issues that have been raised because I think to do so would be a grave diservice to all OHR fliers and the hobby in general. Just a cursory read through the posts reveal a measure of ignorance and/or mischief by some.

From experience and as a basis for my comments, I have previously successfully defended my right to fly nitro aircraft in a residential area (in a locality other than OHR). I'm not saying where, but that field is smaller than OHR, much closer to residential houses and there are other policy/security considerations that mitigated against allowing RC aircraft. In that case, I even procured the police to issue a caution against the resident who had lodged the original complaint. Success required maturity of thought, a judiciously measured strategy and a firm approach with the authorities.

I must also say that we MUST be mindful that this is a public forum that is not restricted to RC enthusiasts. Anyone, whether fanatic, press or the authorities has unrestricted access. Some of us may recall how a few puerile comments made in jest on DH were quoted out of context and ascribed a wholly different meaning in the SPH forum last year.

So please, all of us are entitled to our own opinions. However, I think we should all also bear a duty to express them responsibly and, as the 2 pages of posts demonstrate so far, I do not believe that this thread is either constructive nor appropriate in preserving OHR as a flying site. Instead, it has only created confusion, irked dissensions and otherwise unhelpfully muddied the waters.

I would strongly urge the moderator to consider deleting it entirely as a service to all aeromodellers.

Let me tell you what I am trying to do when i started this thread. To raise awareness of the issues which we encounter at OHR. Though it may seem that it isn't effective because not many modellers come onto the forum, it obviously has been effective enough, thus your friend telling you that this thread exists.
Anyway, i don't think there is a need to delete this thread. Though you have flown at the site for some time, you may not have encountered the problems which some of us have encountered. Again, this thread is to tell people who do not know that we have had multiple encounters with the police due to complaints from the neighbours.
This thread is not around to tell people what they can or cannot fly. It is merely a thread telling you the problems and the complaints of the residents in the area. Whether you want to help the problem or don't bother just shows what kind of person you are. I believe flying with the knowledge of the problem is better than flying without knowing the problem. Ignorance is bliss, but may be a problem to the whole community of flyers there.
This is not a debate on why we should or shouldn't fly what we want to. At the end of the day, this serves with the purpose of informing people what this field is going through. What they fly is up to them, there is no real way of stopping them from flying.
With your school of thought, i invite you to try flying nitro's at pfw. I suppose people start getting very defensive when their regular field is under attack by complaints. Fact is, the number has grown since the field's popularity has grown, hence new problems.

We can refer to the old thread regarding this on the news paper forum section. I agree with you that the comments given regarding this issue was rather immature and made purely by anger. Let this be known to the public as trying to resolve an issue. I don't see any heated arguments nor rash remarks made in this thread thus far. Correct me if i am wrong .
Again, i don't think this thread should be deleted. If anything, each flying field should have a sticky thread to inform new flyers the norms of the field and past complaints. I believe this should be one of them.

[Heli_fanatic]

if we all do our part , we will all be happy