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    Slope Flying Tips - Flying wing, Composites w flaps/spoiler vs Gliders (rudder)

    Hi all Bedok regulars,

    Most of you will know me more for flying powered crafts like plane and heli, only very recently thanks to some poisoning that I took sloping a bit more seriously. Thanks to Birdtime from Joe & mentoring from Ghostfit. I found I actually like it lol much to my surprise after getting stuck for an hour when most can't sustain because of lacklustre condition.

    I would like to find out more about sloping but more in local context particularly our only sloping place Bedok Reservoir. I see main 4 types of crafts as follows:

    - Flying wings
    - Gliders (dihedral with rudder only)
    - Composites (spoilerons, Ailerons and Rudder)
    - Scale composites (usually the real hugh stuff with mind boggling wingspan)

    I know from the gatherings there that the gliders like my Bird of time can stay afloat really well, even to the point of stalling it facing the wind in lacklustre condition. I learnt from my exercise (picking up wing) last year that flying wing needs more pronounced differential in the elevons for slope flying etc. If the experts can contribute their experience here, will be great thread for people like me wanting to get started in this. Loads of questions below, any help appreciated.

    Characteristics/ Questions

    Bedok Reservoir general flying tips:
    Some of which I gathered from others, Fly figure of 8 always turning out to the wind (never inward downwind unless you want to climb trees). Try to keep the craft moving and not stall face the wind etc. Venture more to the right side above the treeline if you can, you get the most lift there when turning back usually, Pang what is the block numbers again to be above at? These simple tips got me flying for an hour first timer on a proper glider. Anymore to add for this area?

    Flying wings - (For combat only?)
    Need for elevon differential, how much and CG/Mac? Is that applicable for all? I see these crafts mostly restricted to close area flying usually zooming about for fun and combat. Do they go any further?

    Gliders - (Goal is to thermal as high?)
    for Gliders like Bird of Time, the recommended rudder throw was a disaster for BR, learnt the hard way you need more and dun even think about point the nose beyond perpendicular to wind direction, you will lose rudder authority and kiss the tree. Landing for this craft is a bit tricky too, no flaps or spoilerons, the bigger the craft the crazier it gets. Tips I get from most people is to get the plane low to the right side of BR, turn it around without gaining height, bring it in for a landing from the right coming in low up the slope. This is pretty tough, I struggle with rudder authority all the time setting up for landing.

    Composites -
    This one got my attention most, seen a few F3X videos that has our local pilots participating. What is the trick in this? To always keep it moving fast turning kinetic energy to heights? Casting nose weight - I saw Dennis's helpful thread about casting your own weight, Where do we buy those material, does any shop in SG sell precasted weight for select models? Also, same thing applies to ballast, where to get started in machining these slugs? Brass material?

    - Scale composites
    I seen a few with really huge wingspan, in excess of 4m. What is the reason for such sizes? Do they thermal better? Are they restricted to the coastline only flying or have the capability to climb much higher and further if the conditions allow?
    Stop looking for a gyro in my plane, they are all in the head.

    #2
    Originally posted by edmond22 View Post
    Hi all Bedok regulars,

    Most of you will know me more for flying powered crafts like plane and heli, only very recently thanks to some poisoning that I took sloping a bit more seriously. Thanks to Birdtime from Joe & mentoring from Ghostfit. I found I actually like it lol much to my surprise after getting stuck for an hour when most can't sustain because of lacklustre condition.
    Welcome to the poison world of slope flying. As you know it is easy if you have power to climb and glide down. It is a different ball game if you have no power and all you have are wind and thermal lift. You can have lots of wind but if it is not the correct direction you won't get the lift you need.

    I would like to find out more about sloping but more in local context particularly our only sloping place Bedok Reservoir. I see main 4 types of crafts as follows:

    - Flying wings
    - Gliders (dihedral with rudder only)
    - Composites (spoilerons, Ailerons and Rudder)
    - Scale composites (usually the real hugh stuff with mind boggling wingspan)

    I know from the gatherings there that the gliders like my Bird of time can stay afloat really well, even to the point of stalling it facing the wind in lacklustre condition. I learnt from my exercise (picking up wing) last year that flying wing needs more pronounced differential in the elevons for slope flying etc. If the experts can contribute their experience here, will be great thread for people like me wanting to get started in this. Loads of questions below, any help appreciated.
    Each of the craft have very different characteristic.
    - Flying Wings : Ailevator. I started with this. After my first crash with my swift. Cheap and very strong and it can handle most acrobatics maneuvers.
    - Gliders: Polyhedral. 'RE' = Rudder and Elevator. Some is 'RES' = Rudder, Elevator and Spoilers. Your Bird Of Time is RE. As you found out the rudder take a little longer to respond to change.
    - Composites: They have full span (Flaps and Ailerons). They have full trailing edge ailerons and outboard ailerons. Like Tony say flying composite is like writing with and expensive ballpoint pen. It's smooth, tracks well and can be very fast. Of course you also can get the whistling sound.
    - Scales: This is the ultimate model for slope gliding. This season is my first in full scale model. Unlike some craft where you can "hang" in the wind, this baby you need to fly and fly it fast, no hanging around.
    Characteristics/ Questions

    Bedok Reservoir general flying tips:
    Some of which I gathered from others, Fly figure of 8 always turning out to the wind (never inward downwind unless you want to climb trees). Try to keep the craft moving and not stall face the wind etc. Venture more to the right side above the treeline if you can, you get the most lift there when turning back usually, Pang what is the block numbers again to be above at? These simple tips got me flying for an hour first timer on a proper glider. Anymore to add for this area?

    Flying wings - (For combat only?)
    Need for elevon differential, how much and CG/Mac? Is that applicable for all? I see these crafts mostly restricted to close area flying usually zooming about for fun and combat. Do they go any further?
    CG/Mac depends a lot on the wing shape. Delta wings CG is about 60 - 70% chord. I do get my wing to go thermal hunting but I think the fun is zooming and combating.

    Gliders - (Goal is to thermal as high?)
    for Gliders like Bird of Time, the recommended rudder throw was a disaster for BR, learnt the hard way you need more and dun even think about point the nose beyond perpendicular to wind direction, you will lose rudder authority and kiss the tree. Landing for this craft is a bit tricky too, no flaps or spoilerons, the bigger the craft the crazier it gets. Tips I get from most people is to get the plane low to the right side of BR, turn it around without gaining height, bring it in for a landing from the right coming in low up the slope. This is pretty tough, I struggle with rudder authority all the time setting up for landing.
    Thermaling is fun and we normally try to speck out the glider. Of course F3F ship goes for speed. Never point the nose along the wing direction. Many people find out the hard way when they unknowingly turn inwards. You have ground speed but you will have no airspeed. The glider in moving at the same speed as the wing speed, thus you will not have air flowing over your wind and control surfaces.


    Composites -
    This one got my attention most, seen a few F3X videos that has our local pilots participating. What is the trick in this? To always keep it moving fast turning kinetic energy to heights?
    F3F race is 100m lap x 10 = 1000m. The fastest average time is the winner. At launch, you have 30sec to get as high as possible and just before the 30sec up, you have to dive and enter the circuit. This is where your glider setup comes in, snap flap when you pull elevator, ballasting your glider etc...
    If you ballast too much and wind isn't strong, you will have an overweight glider that falls to the ground, if you ballast too little in a strong wing, it will not penetrate the wind.
    Casting nose weight - I saw Dennis's helpful thread about casting your own weight, Where do we buy those material, does any shop in SG sell precasted weight for select models? Also, same thing applies to ballast, where to get started in machining these slugs? Brass material?
    I am using sand casting method. I collect some sea sand (finest the better). Wash the salt as much as possible. Well my URL will explain it. haha. Lead, go to changi village and but fishing weight, the lader, bought it at the market (use metal lader). For the ballast slug personal preference. Brass, steel whatever metal that is heavy.

    - Scale composites
    I seen a few with really huge wingspan, in excess of 4m. What is the reason for such sizes? Do they thermal better? Are they restricted to the coastline only flying or have the capability to climb much higher and further if the conditions allow?
    Shiok
    Huge = more stress = more expensive = shiok

    Comment


      #3
      Many thanks for the tips and answer. The airspeed vs groundspeed example helps plenty. Re glider fun to fly but quite tricky when you get into trouble lol.
      What is the most preferred method for gluing in servos? Masking tape wrap or shrink tube?
      Stop looking for a gyro in my plane, they are all in the head.

      Comment


        #4
        Hello ed, sharing some of my experiences, glad that you got started. Slope soaring is fun, one of the cheapest form of rc perhaps, one nimh rx pack, you can fly the whole weekend. walking up/down picking planes exercise and rescuing planes from the trees are part of the whole initiation process. we all went thru that. haha

        Bedok Reservoir general flying tips:

        The general pattern is fly figure 8 ,

        Flight path depends on the wind strength, direction and familarity with flying site. At our bedok slope, we are very fortunate to have both slope lift and thermal. Near to the slope area is where slope lift is , higher up on good days, you have thermals.



        For slope lift, generally closer to the slope face, you get more lift thats why you see us flying at the edge, for beginners recommended not to get too close to the trees as sometimes they like to stick their branches out and grab your planes.

        The gradient of bedok slope is not very steep so the uplift is at an angle instead of vertical up. Thats why we have to keep our gliders moving more than at steep slopes like phuket and sedili.

        The lift spots are changing constantly with the wind. There are also sink and turbulance areas if you are inside these , get out and move to other areas fast. You have to keep moving to find the lift spots and avoid sink. The saftest areas are right in front where we stand n fly. the gradient there is steep generating lots of lift. Sometimes you have to take risk to fly further out to explore.

        Generally when you fly, observe your plane, see if is climbing, maintaining or sinking. Plane climbing indicate lift, you can keep going. Sinking - sink zones, get ready to turn back. Alot of beginners when their planes starts dropping height, pull on the elevator, this makes their plane lose more airspeed and may stall. Push the plane down to get airspeed and turn with speed. This way plane wont stall.

        Once you have enough height to fly over the treeline, head towards Blk 716. very big blk number for you to aim for. All this while observe your plane attitude, get ready to turn back if you start sinking too low. There are many lift / thermal areas on the right side once you fly over the trees. Thermals go where the wind blows, once you are in a thermal, you can do thermal turns and circle with the thermal, just becareful, the winds will blow you back and the trees may block your view, keep the plane insight all the time.

        Flying wings - (For combat only?)

        They are simple, easy and fun. yes they can fly further too. Combat usually in the close area in front as the lift there is good, and can recover if the plane gets hit. But the funny thing is the more we want to hit, the harder it gets.

        Gliders - (Goal is to thermal as high?)

        I guess each has his own goals when flying, some like to thermal, some like to combat,some like speed, some like acrobatics, some just want to relax watching their gliders fly around, you can do all these at BR slope.

        Rudder can afford to have more throws, especially useful when the lift is marginally and you can do flat turns to maintain height. but elevator you dont need so much. add in expo, reduce your dual rates. too much elevator throw, you will have overcorrection and see the plane bobbing up and down.

        One impt skill is turning without loosing attitude, use elevator and give enough input to maintain the height while turning. very useful in marginal lift. dont over pull on elevator, may stall.

        Since we dont have power, energy management is key. Best to let the glider fly, and do minimum adjustments. this way you dont waste the energy. You can trade height for speed to get across sink zones, then get back height, slow down again when you find lift. Setup your glider to have a few modes, Thermal mode with flaps dropping a few mm allows you to slow down n float in lift zones. flick to cruise when you want to move faster out, or add reflex few mm up flaps for speed.

        Landing-landing approach is usually fly in figure 8s till you get your craft is low and slow, use brakes (butterfly/spoilerons) if you have to. Then go along right side far down and make a turn back. deploy brakes once you make the turn, if you dont have brakes, creep your glider back up the slope to lose lift and energy, you can use rudder to crab the plane along the slope. On good days its hard to land, you have to push elevator to push the plane down. Lots of area to land , land lower down is safer. If you come in too fast, off your brakes and go one more round. Have patient, go a few rounds to practice your approach if you have to.

        Composites -

        F3F - like what dennis said. quite a few things involved. reading the air, slope. deciding on the flying path, types of turns to execute, ballast, etc. each lap builds on the previous lap, the speed comes from well executed turns. in the f3f videos with good runs, you can see the plane getting faster after the turns,hard to explain this one, something to do with cutting the wind layer like dynamic soaring. Slightly more in deep read on f3f setup.
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        - Scale composites
        scale gliders have many sizes, Big scale gliders looks very graceful in the air, not necessary easier to fly. all depends on their airfoil and wing loading, like other gliders. They do climb very high when conditions allow.

        Hope this helps, hard to visualise lots of words, its easier to experience and explain at the slope. Fly more and explore, thats part of the fun.
        www.facebook.com/groups/BRslopers
        www.facebook.com/groups/SG.Fr3aK.League

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by edmond22 View Post
          Many thanks for the tips and answer. The airspeed vs groundspeed example helps plenty. Re glider fun to fly but quite tricky when you get into trouble lol.
          What is the most preferred method for gluing in servos? Masking tape wrap or shrink tube?
          I use masking tape. I normally sand the bonding surface on the masking tape. There are some some waxs/oil that may not bond very well. I tried using shrink tube but after a while, the shrink tube stretch and the servo become loose.

          We had our share of plane in trees so come prepared. Hammer and a very strong string is a must.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by edmond22 View Post
            Also, same thing applies to ballast, where to get started in machining these slugs? Brass material?
            The key is getting ballast slugs of the correct diameter, I got mine (for the 'phoon direct from Pang) you should also fabricate some 'spacer' slugs from EPP foam/Rubber for the purpose of partial ballast and equally important, inertial force absortion when you land (esp' the carrier type landings at sedili !)

            Originally posted by edmond22 View Post
            - Scale composites
            I seen a few with really huge wingspan, in excess of 4m. What is the reason for such sizes? Do they thermal better? Are they restricted to the coastline only flying or have the capability to climb much higher and further if the conditions allow?
            Besides looking really good in the air, bigger size is also immensely easier to see when your glider is really high up !

            Originally posted by edmond22 View Post
            Many thanks for the tips and answer. The airspeed vs groundspeed example helps plenty. Re glider fun to fly but quite tricky when you get into trouble lol.
            Just like when flying heli and airplane in general, when you get into trouble (lost of orientation) on a heli, you punch the throttle compared chopping the throttle on the airplane.

            Similarly with the glider and airplane, when you get into trouble (usually stalling) with the glider you'll push the elevator down whereas on the airplane, you pull up on the elevator (together with advancing the throttle)

            Originally posted by edmond22 View Post
            What is the most preferred method for gluing in servos? Masking tape wrap or shrink tube?
            I use the masking tape wrap method, my preferance is to use the slightly more expensive Blue colored painter's tape from Homefix DIY store, they seems to have a little less stretch, don't leave a sticky residual when removed and last forever.



            With all the invaluable inputs from Dennis and Pang, I think this thread should be made a STICKY !
            Seriously running out of ...Storage space !

            Comment


              #7
              Just my 2 cents;

              Flying wings are not necessarily meant for combat. Combat models are mainly made from EPP foam but can come in many other forms, including WW2 PSS warbirds. Some flying wings are made from stryrofoam of balsa, which are meant for usualy sports flying. On the other hand, some EPP flying wings are designed to withstand landing impacts at trecherours slope conditions, and not really for combat. Combat models need to recover fast after mid-airs, and not all designs can do that.

              You can make your own ballast easily by cutting up metal pipes of the correct diameter and pour molten lead into them. I bought some aluminium tube from my neighbourhood hardware shop, cut them into the correct length and fill them up with lead for my Strega.

              RES planes are still feasible for slope, if you know how to manage. Afterall, they are what we mainly flew when we started out. But the fact of RES planes are that the pronouce dihedral and polyhedral adds a lot of drag, and their lightweight usually makes them inherit slow. The low stall speeds allow the models to fly at very low speed that makes flight control mushy. Faster composite planes will usually stall out at these speeds before even coming to that point. All you need to do is to steer the model headwind earlier before it gets drifted into the trees. Lacking of ailerons means that you will not have other flight controls to enhance the controllability in strong winds, so you'll need to adopt different style of flying.

              Size of the model makes a lot of difference aerodynamically, and of course, financially. Big models have more mass, and this means inertia. They may not need to have higher wing loadings, and the weight of the model alone can make a difference. More weight means that the model is less prone to be thrown around by the wind. The longer wing chords will also make the airfoil less critical to speed changed. The problem with scale gliders are that the fullsize versions are design to fly well in the same environment with our model, but with the scaled down model, the reduction of wing area and wing chord length makes things a lot more difficult. That's is why most good flying scale gliders are rather big. Sports gliders do not have much of these problems are their wings are already much broader and thinner than scale gliders. And if you scale up a F3F glider to full size, it won't perform and look right either.

              Whatever it is, take your time to explore the vast world of slope soaring, and don't get yourself too burnt out. Many folks come too quick in this aspect only to get burnt out in a few years. Take your time and nurture the passion along the way. By the way, there are a lot more types of slope soarers you haven't mention in your post. There are a lot more to discover.

              Comment


                #8
                One more thing. Some slope gliders, don't even need to look like gliders at all.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Ah Yo so young and slim...
                  Look at the trees in background so short as compare to now.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Alamak, you were once young and slim too what....

                    By the way, on the topic of servo mounting, I am one of the lazy one who like to epoxy the servos down permanently. This is just for some people's preference. Unless you are not sure about the servo you are using, glueing then down directly with epoxy, saves a lot of time and space. And anyway for some people, the servos will outlast the airframes themselves. Most people write off their model way before they need a servo change.

                    As for my case, removing a servo will require me to break it up into smaller pieces and clean up the servo well before installing a new unit. This will take considerable hassles, but with the statistics of my pass experience, I only changed 2 wings servos on my glider fleet so far. Remountable system works very well, but requires a lot of effort, especially when your fleet is gettig bigger.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by chiadennis View Post
                      Ah Yo so young and slim...
                      Look at the trees in background so short as compare to now.

                      You were refering to the model Joe's holding right ?

                      ...somebody's guilty conscious lah
                      Seriously running out of ...Storage space !

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Ok, for the servo mounting, what about those metal case ones like Savox, will gluing them direct hold?

                        I am with Ghostfit on making this thread a sticky. Makes it easier for anyone interested to gain a lot of good info in just one thread!

                        Thanks all for contributing your knowledge!

                        Originally posted by Pang View Post
                        Hello ed, sharing some of my experiences, glad that you got started.
                        Thanks Pang for your diagram and guide. I have seen a video of sloping done in Upper Pierce, how does that place fare?
                        Stop looking for a gyro in my plane, they are all in the head.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Hey Ed,

                          Like other servos, you can just wrap the servos with the metal casing with painter's tape and just glue em direct. The painter's tape will hold the epoxy well enough.

                          Cheers,
                          Adnan
                          Take what you've got and fly with it - Jim Henson
                          ... no plane will allow a pilot to recover from stupid. You still have to do those piloty things... - Joe Wurts
                          Electric things run on smoke. Let the smoke out and they won't work.


                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #14
                            With the wind sometimes blowing NNE, which part of the slope do we go to find more lift?

                            Tips please
                            "Always fly with a responsible attitude. You may think that flying low over other people’s heads is proof of your piloting skill; others know better. The real expert does not need to prove himself in such childish ways..." - the Multiplex Build Manual

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It's very hard to say where the lifts are. At time we have head on wind but it's most slope lift with very small thermal bubbles. Over the years of sloping at BR, most thermal we find in over the trees on the right side and over the pontoon with some occasion directly in front of us.

                              Comment

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